dewaxed shellac under polyurethanemarble powder suppliers

If you are staining the wood the stain would be aplied first correct? I always give honest opinions, findings, and experiences on products. It was good and timely and just what I needed to hear after working Put the samples in the hot sun. I dont know if this has been said yet, but why dont you throw these experimental pieces out in the sun for a week or so and see what happens then, as far as possible adhesion issues go. Thanks for taking the time to do it. Kind of just answering a personal curiousity publicly. I even used duct tape in addition to Scotch tape and didnt get any finish lift from any of the samples. In my experience, shellac has an extremely long shelf life because you can almost always reconstitute it with denatured alcohol. And I have used several coats of non-dewaxed shellac under the poly just to get to the right shade on some pieces. P.S. I tried a test piece and it looks great but Im not sure about the durability. Theres no need for a sanding sealer. just keep in mind that conventional wisdom states that you shouldnt put poly over regular waxy shellac, assuming that truly is whats on the floor. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Have you ever done a video that was so long, you found yourself being influenced by yourself toward the end? Ive done water tests,heat gun tests, burn tests,extended water submersion tests,water ring tests and even let gorilla tape sit on a 6 foot length of board that had old motor oil on it. Shellac will redissolve to some extent when a new layer is applied on top. Is it ok to use shellac as a stand alone finish on some things? Love your video! This is a topic that I will continue to watch. Why? Already on it. Each coat of varnish will need a day of drying time between coats. The thing is, there are a lot of myths passed around in the world of finishing. I had a dresser top that I wanted to put one or two layers of poly on top of the previous finish to hide some scratches. Functional cookies help to perform certain functionalities like sharing the content of the website on social media platforms, collect feedbacks, and other third-party features. I.E.- multiple coats to get that deep, rich depth that shellac is famous for. Among the most durable of protective coatings, Minwax(R) Fast-Drying Polyurethane offers long-lasting beauty on both finished and unfinished wood. Hi, Thanks Mark for all your videos, i try to see them all. as a novice the whole shellac idea is confusing. Againno disrespect intendedand this is one of my favorite websites! Ive just built a kitchen cabinet for trash and in the process of testing out different. This sounds pretty good to me; I would love to hear your thoughts. Shouldnt take long in the AZ sun :). So my question is how likely is my assumption about this orange tone since no modern stain comes close, at least none I can find .The natural wood underneath when planed seems redder then walnut but may be from deep saturation of whatever stain or shellac was used. Patience is something I have lacked all my life. Any ideas on what the original finish on the dresser was? Wont that cause a problem over the long term? Marc, Cutting dovetails, and making sure wood doesnt warp isnt half the battle of finishing. Thanks Big D! The Wood Whisperer abides by word of mouth marketing standards and holds integrity in the highest regard. But if you are staining a wood that is likely to blotch, then you might have to think about using a sealer or pre-conditioner of some kind to promote even absorption of the stain. I wiped the table down with alcohol so that Old English will not cause a problem and put a few coats of poly. The pine 15 are staying put for now. Mine is very basic but works for me. I am told the wood is probably Chestnut. Youll just have to buy flakes instead of buying it in the can. Scored it deeply with an xacto knife in 0.1 squares (1010) and used scotch tape and duck tape. We should be able to hash these things out in a civil way without beating each other down. What would you use to restore this small cabinet. Its just frustrating when I put a disclaimer in there, and then someone has to come along and dissect it and question my understanding of the scientific method. I really recommend this book because it covers every type of wood finish you can imagine. I live in southern California so, moisture not much of an issue. It gets direct sun light about 6 months out of the year. I then sanded some more. These cookies track visitors across websites and collect information to provide customized ads. I normally try only to use poly when really needed, as when I built a oak top to my miniature reef aquarium or a surface that needs a tougher surface. I had sealed the board with zinnser bullseye and top coated with Polly. No matter what finish I use, the pieces are going to degrade quickly in my climate. I cant properly comment on the good and bad like a lot of others can, based simply on my lack of experience with a lot of these finishes, but I really appreciate you diving into a lot of the problems/myths/truths about different finishes. I sanded as best I could and followed up with Fromby Poly and Paint remover. Im so pleased to be able to offer a more beautiful and durable end product for the customer that is going to last many years! It looks promising as it has a much longer shelf life than traditional French polish. Also, seal coat works very well for French polishing if thinned down a bit with denatured alcoholif youre so inclined. In which case, random tests would not be conclusive. I let the tape work its way onto the surface for 3 summer days and when I pulled it, nothing came up. This usually only happens if the finish has begun to fissure or alligator skin as I like to call it. Thanks, Marc. I dont want to take any chances when it comes to finishing. How long can I keep that Zinsser liquid shellac on the shelf? Very cool. So old pieces can become quite difficult to match when using new materials. Designed and developed by Underscorefunk Design. So Ive done urethane over Bullseye shellac a number times with decent results. That will give folks the opportunity to help you in a more efficient conversational way. Michael, Time as well as types of material used in the finishes can affect the chemical interaction. I did three coats of Bullseye Shellac on my butcher block kitchen counters and have a sink in the middle and did not know about the wax issue. Keep them coming. Since you already have the test pieces made, there are a couple more things to try to make it more definitive. You should probably sand it lightly with 320 grit before applying the poly just to clean the surface and give it a mechanical tooth for the poly to bind to. This happened to me with tables that had sat for several weeks. I once tried poly over a previously waxed hardwood floor. Ive been restoring antiques for 15 years. I originally wanted to refinish and oil them but didnt like the look of just tung oil so I added a stain / poly combo. Your email address will not be published. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. You should mail these boards to Matt, and let them winter there. Because I just loved the way it looked on my test piece. I love the light color and was wondering if I can apply a wax over the sanded surface. Did I mention how LONG it takes me to finish a project? I reference your site often (ref.d Raising Arizona when doing the panels for this project). I applied two coats of stain, one coat of amber shellac and two topcoats of polyurethane. Leave it out in the sun and see if it effects the adhesion test. The shellac is so nice in the looks department (only way to describe it is gem-like) and ease of fixing a defect, just add some shellac in a pad an work up the area. 2. Greg. Trusted by generations of woodworkers, shellac is a traditional, quick-drying finish that is ideal for antiques and fine furniture. I even put tape over the area where the epoxy drops were and no lifting was observed there either. The manufacturer makes no representation as to its value. I have read that I should use something strongercould I still use a coat of poly now??? Good idea to get everyone thinking about their finishing process. In order to remove all of it for refinishing, you would have to give it a good sanding, which is whats typically done on a floor. 100% wax-free formula dries in minutes and sands easily. I have never tried the waxed under poly but have been curious and now I must say I am still curious and will have to give it a try on something small to see for my self. Just an idea of how you can get adhesion test try bending the board (looking on the thickness it won?t be an easy task) and if the layers have not connected well you should be able to see how the top layer rise up. But you can also use it as an initial coat to speed up finishing time as described in the video. Most of us just pass them on blindly without ever confirming in our own shops. But its something to be aware of. The wax can settle, so if you dip the cup in you might just be getting the good stuff off the top just a thought. Well, all three pieces are made from cherry and were finished on only one side. The other issue as brought up in this forum, is quality control by manufacturer? That would give you a nice deep looking finish on that chestnut. Then sanding after 3-4 coats of poly. Just found out it has natural wax in the product. That product comes in both gloss and satin finishes. These finishes are holding on for dear life! Re: non-dewaxed shellac as an undercoat for varnish: Thanks Marc for this! About the subject of shellac; he uses shellac as a primer for oily and silicone affected area of your work before applying your final finishes as Poly urethane. I have a project at home that I wanted to put some poly on over a shellac and oil base finished and was putting off until I read these tests. Then polyurethane them with two and got like a natural finish I was happy being first time doing any finishing on my bar Im going with 3 to see if I can keep that gold look a lil more cause it is so beautiful let you know when Im done. Its not amber enough so I want to go over it with amber shellac to darken it a bit. At this point the shellac is watertight and no grain will rise (I actually never have used only the seal-coat but after sanding it it is not always totally water-tight so the grain might rise). Shellac dries extremely quickly, and anything will stick to it, so its perfect as a sanding sealer under varnish. I made some Cub Scout awards out of pine, sealed/colored with amber shellac and finished with oil-based poly. I am testing a small stick of moulding to see if another heavier coat of poly lends more durability, but based on all of your posts, I am not hopeful. Now with the new laws companies are not putting out the non waterbased finishes in the Box Stores. Your opening up of pandoras box has gotten a lot of interaction. They look like someone stained them, then put shellac or polyurethane around around area rugs. Hi Everyone! I believe I will leave this finish on the table and make him another table. Hard to say. However Zinsser now also makes a dedicated French polish (probably thinned with a touch of oil) which I have yet to try. Shellac isnt going to be all that durable near a sink. To protect the wood, I topcoated with Minwax fast-drying polyurethane. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_over_lean. Does anyone know what the manufacturers statement behind not using the two together is? The shellac does away with the blotchy finish of stain on raw pine. They all have to be completely refinished to get the poly to stick. Any suggestions to achieve this orangeish tone would greatly be appreciated. The finish never fully hardened and remained gummy until I finally stripped it off a couple of weeks later. I bet the tape will remove some. Wonder if the sanding between coats helped with the adhesion issue? Now I have always taken the better safe than sorry route, simply avoiding regular waxed shellac. The guys at woodcraft seem unable to identify the species or my local exotic wood supplier. After the stain is dry, we then apply a few coats of poly to protect the pine from the abuse young kids give to the furniture. There are a lot of variablesthe main one being time. 12 hours staining. :). We still have plenty of hot AZ sunny days left. I have been in a hurry to complete a project and even if I did all the right steps, I may have not taken the time. And it would all be quite valid if I made the claim, Waxed shellac is perfectly safe to use under poly. But I didnt. Strip the shellac off the counters, and put whatever you want on top. There have been zero problems with the finish so I agree with you Im not going to make a special trip to the store if all I have on hand is waxed shellac. Performance cookies are used to understand and analyze the key performance indexes of the website which helps in delivering a better user experience for the visitors. Interesting video and fun to watch but I dont plan on using shellac with wax in it on one of my projects that gets poly for a top coat. I switched up my finishing system 5 years ago to a shellac base and poly top coat. Ive never used anything but de-waxed shellac under poly ever since that childhood memory was burnt into my 8 year old brain. Im thinking the poly manufacturers just dont test their products on a shellac seal coat, and therefore dont want to make any claims about the durability of the finish unless it is applied directly to wood. We have a cottage style home, so imprefections are welcome! Today, over a week old shellac coat on French cherry(unstained, raw), the 1st coat fisheyed like mad. First let me say I have enjoyed your insight into this topic going back to early one showing how to warm water-based finishes. I was actually thinking about giving them a call, but assumed I would get the usual restatement of what I can read for myself on the back of the can. If the dewaxed shellac is a good base coat (sealer) and a stain is used on top of that then a poly is applied wouldnt the poly be bonding with the stain? I live in a warm and humid environment. The second would be to help prevent blotching. It may not happen every time, or with every formulation of urethane either. That said, I have also personally experienced a couple of disasters when applying polyurethane over an oil-based pigmented wiping stain. 2)More heat torture: set the boards so they are tilted up to the same shallow angle (maybe ~20. Required fields are marked *. Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner. I have heard countless times that you should never put polyurethane over waxed shellac. Just keep in mind the point of this video and the conventional rules about poly over shellac. Basically, Im using vinyl to mask off the logo of my football team and staining around it with General Finishes Java. :). I used to use an oil based system but the government decided to crack down on oil based products due to invironmental concerns here in Canada. Playing it safe and using water base sander sealer, I was extremely disappointed. Then one day they use a sample where the rains that season were unusually high (or low), or the temperatures were off, or it was a collected from a village that hadnt been used before, or whatever, and bam!, they have a finishing disaster on an expensive piece. and I have a 100% success rate in my finish thus far. I will be watching the video in a little bitLove the podcasts BTW Marc. Do I need to use a sanding sealer over the CN product? follow up with spar urethane with uv protection. I was building a desk once and used shellac as a sealer. Can you believe it is 2012 and people are still replying to your video??? Slight blue cast. Now I can go to bed and sleep peacefully! what do you think? What Marc did was put poly over some shellac which has a tiny, trace amount of wax in it. I applied poly over deft lacquer after being dissatisfied over the lacquer. I know the molding in my parents home was cypress in some rooms and some were American chestnut now extinct. chart at bottom of article, extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/hi_28.pdf. Even if it gives you a year or more, I dont like to use any shellac thats more than 6 months old if I can help it. No worries then. Drying time? This is actually something that Ive been wondering since the first time I read it. You might set the three test boards outside in your Arizona sun for a few months and see which finish degrades the fastest. One would be to seal off oils or potential contaminates on the surface. It takes me a long time to finish a project. That is the only claim that was made. The poly peeled like crazy. Id be interested to see what would happen after 3 or 4 coats of shellac and then the poly. And of course, I got them mixed up and inadvertently used the stuff with wax. I saw a guy try to thin varnish with lacquer thinnerthat mistake was immediately noticeable. Just watched your video Shellac under poly. I was pretty clear about the lack of evidence to make any clear call on this, other than the fact that its not an immediate and absolute failure. I love the way that it looked because it made the table look antiqued. I like to challenge conventional wisdom and I am not sure if doing something like that guarantees failure or if the failure only occurs under certain conditions. I know shame on me. I still had the samples in the shop so I jumped in and did a few more tests. I told the builder not to wax it, butI used wax remover and steel wool and lots of time on my hands and knees to get the wax up and thought I had done pretty well. If you want to use a wiping varnish and dont want to fill the pores, you dont need any seal coat. Then I add 3-5 coats of a 2 or 3-pound cut of shellac to build up a protective layer of shellac, when dry sand it of with P600 grit, wet or dry, but just slightly to remove any high spots. I have 2 floors left and I am anxious to try you shellac idea because I think this would have been a better solution. It looks like the table is 50 years old. Im going to go get Amber Wax Shellac today! I posted a link to my blog for my Before pictures. In my ignorance of this myth(?) So perhaps the adhesion problem is not something that is noticeable right away it may take several seasons of changing temps and humidity for it show up but I am still convinced that you should use the de-waxed stuff under poly. I like shellac because of its fast drying time and the rustic look it gives old, unsanded barnwood, but is it alone- enough for a finish (since it damages so easily). What product/ process do you experts recommend??? Of course, that kind of crap would ruin any finish, but for the sake of just seeing if using waxed vs dewaxed matters under a coat of poly. Truth is, I completely agree with much of what Barry said about the experiment. I dont mean any disrespect at allI love this website and I have all the downloads. Some sites state I have to use a sealer under the wax. Marc, great video. Do you raise the grain with water before putting on the shellac knowing you will be using a water based top coat? But I will address some of your points here. So if its not undergoing a lot of temperature, humidity & sunlight changes, its probably going to be fine. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. After I watched this video, I was inspired to buy some shellac flakes and alcohol and make my first jar of shellac. I would also like to spray it so there are NO brush marks. :) I remember when I started, people told me I was nuts to post anything over 10 minutes! But my results gave me enough confidence to say that if you are using the finish as a sealer coat (2lb cut or less), I see no reason not to use whatever shellac you have on hand, even if it has wax in it. Mr. Wood Whisperer, The woodworking club, that I am a member of, builds kid size tables and chairs as fundraisers at markets and shows. Something to note about wax. I have strengthened all the joints with carpenters glue. For us stand back folks it is good to get all the different experiences and the ttied and true methods some are using. Using both duct tape and Scotch tape over a grid work of slices made with an X-acto knife, no lifting of the finish was observed on any of the boards. Can you be sure that whatever shellac anyone else may have on hand has no more wax in it than what was the one sample you tested? You can give it many coats in a day with light sanding with fine grit between coats and create a perfect, flat surface for your varnish. We will recarpet the not so great areas, but want to leave the 3 bedrooms alone. My gut feeling is the original finish was done with an orange shellac and somewhere over time re coated with a polyurethane. Just sanded an old table to use as a desk. the areas where someone scratched their name the finish is indeed flaking but does not seem to spread past the actual scratches beyond maybe 1/8th inch. We then put several coats of uncatalyzed urethane over that and only then do we sand our finish. I played it safe with the process. My problem I have several coats of amber shellac on a kitchen table top, thinking I would get a durable finish. Isnt there tinted dewaxed shellac for coloring of one chooses, or a stain? As of yet, I havent found seal coat to be inferior to freshly mixed flake shellac. Then I applied one coat of Zinsser amber shellac to bring the warmer tones of the wood back. To answer that question, I decided to do a little experiment for myself. Try a hot cup of coffee or a heat gun, Could you apply Amber Shellac OVER polyurethane? Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. Planning on 3 thinned coats to seal this. I think theres a big difference. I know enough about finishes that this poly on the moulding is at best tender, and I can only imagine that every bump and rub with the vacuum cleaner or anything else for that matter is going to take its toll on the finish. Any product claim, statistic, quote or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider or party in question. Thanks again. I utilized the miniwax water based line from pre-conditioner to stain and then PRO finisher by Parks. Help. . Will the fisheyes continue or will there enough build up to fill in and then level with wool/sanding? I have a floor from the 80s pine with that amazing golden color from oil Verathane I have used shellac on most of my shop built cabinets and work bench because I can repair the finish at any time. If you want to see the project I used this on, its #37456 at LumberJocks. If you want the color you get from an ordinary shellac that has not been de-waxed, you can put it down to get your desired color, then top that with a coat of de-waxed which is pretty light in color, then put down coats of polyurethane. 1- It could have several purposes. Hi Marc, Its a good idea to avoid sanding until you have at least two coast of finish on top. The varnish allows you to still have a tough, water-resistant coating. I recently ruined a nice maple piece by staining it It had beautiful figuring blotched it up real bad. Two coats. And yes, I have no idea what Im talking about. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. With that said, my ultimate vision was to apply the popular bar top epoxy. I have finished and refinished for some 40 years. I reaqd that an oil-based varnish may work. Do you raise the grain after the shellac? When a hardwood floor is waxed, theres a significant buildup of pure wax on top. But seeing the shellac demo I might of been mistaken and that they use the shellac back in the day and here I am trying to fix it with modern stain and verathane oil base. But since I am just a guy in a garage, there is only so much I can do. From books to magazine articles to forums to DVDs, the message is always the same. But using a good quality marine varnish as a top coat should help. HELP. Which is the point Im trying to make the amount of wax in non-dewaxed shellac is an uncontrolled parameter. I use Poly mostly for projects that are subject to extensive ware Or (childern) 2- The above reasons primarily. Given this, please assume that any links leading you to products or services are affiliate links that we will receive compensation from. Hi Just wanted to mention, thanks for trying this. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". He then had to pay a floor finisher to sand them down again. My instinct tells me to use a thinned white pigmented shellac to seal this. Love the podcast & videos. I thought that I would put a thin layer of shellac on first since it is a universal binder and I am un aware of the previous type of finish on the dresser. I think they are saying, just dont sue me This is exactly why I am always suspicious of corporate literature. The Poly should be very rigid, but the shellac is pretty flexible. And of course I know you mean no disrespect. Have done any videos on blending pine boards to match old to new ? After the poly dried, to my horror, the streaks were still there.